"Is it possible for the universe to be infinite - could it have possibly existed forever? If the universe has existed forever, there could be no beginning for it. Without a beginning, the universe could not be in progress... whatever is causing change now would have already occurred in the boundless past. Time would really be meaningless and progress is defined by time - it is state with relation to time. Yet we know that the world is falling into decay... if such a process had been occurring forever, order would not now exist, and could have never existed in the first place since in order for order to have been decaying over an infinitely long period of time, its extent must be infinite. Progress always occurs over a definite period of time, especially progress which is spiraling downward like our universe is - entropy. So if we look backwards at the progress of our universe, it would be progressing upward toward order - given the assumption that the cosmos is eternal. If there were ever a point where it reached order, that would be a beginning, a point when the process of decay started. But behind that point would lie "another" infinity of time, during which all possible changes would already have occurred - if change could indeed occur in infinity. You can argue backward forever, literally, and never reach a point where change could have started that would not have been already preceded by an infinite amount of time. And infinite things don't have beginnings, they always have been. Progress is by nature a thing bounded by time, and so cannot be applied to things which are infinite, which are not bounded by time. If you can think of it mathematically, progress is the amount of change per unit of time, and if the amount of time that you multiply this proportion by is infinite, so then is the amount of change which results. And since at any "point" in infinity there is an infinite amount of preceding time, the amount of preceding change that would have occurred - were there a process ongoing - would be infinite. As such, there would never have been, not be now, and never will be a point in time when there would be any change left to occur. And since there never was such a point, such a process could never have started. The only way for it to start is for something else to have started it, something else which is not in progress, never has been, and never will be; but is capable of creating existence which has a beginning and an end, and as such is in progress."
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4 Comment(s):
Wow. :D I think that sounds about right. =P
Are you surprised?? :P
Fascinating. Here are some idle thoughts of a curious mind...
I wish I could ask the author a few questions... What about cycles? As the sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening, it appears to be progress...until the next day when it happens again. Why couldn't that happen ad infinitum?
Or again, as Winter turns to Spring, which turns to Summer, which, like pride, comes before the Fall, does not progress appear so evidently...until the next year.
Why can't time be cyclical, modeled after the sine function? In Calculus, you learn how to work with infinity, to make it remotely tangible. Infinity can be defined, if not understood.
What if the universe, like the God who created it, was boundless by space and time, yet entirely within Him?
The math works out a number of different ways. I can't say for certain how it all actually is. I *do* know that the universe once wasn't before God created it. What I can't wrap my mind around is what was time before the sun and moon were created? We measure passage of time by the rotation of the earth around the sun, so before the sun, or even the earth for that matter were created, How can you define time?
'Clay
Clayton,
As that author you wished you could ask, your questions sparked a response or two. :)
I think that all of your questions boil down to the last one that you ask – “How can you define time?” I think there’s only one way to define anything, by the Infinite Standard who created all that exists. Our infinite God alone is beyond all other things, and hence alone capable of defining them. Time is the fourth dimension of the reality that God has created – objects, events, even people are defined, given identity, not just by who they are, not just by when they are, not just by how they are, but also by *when* they are. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” “The first day…. The second day… the third day… etc.” It wasn’t just in any cycle of evening and morning that God created man, it was the sixth. And the sixth from what? From the beginning, the point where God created the universe, and with it, I would say, time. Time allows us to determine the relationship of change between two states of an object that may to all other appearances be the same. Thirty minutes ago, my brain was not on this train of thought to respond to you, but now it is. In the passing of those 30 minutes, my brain changed state. It is still my brain, but it is different. It has progressed, gathered new thoughts, and developed a response (hopefully logical :) )… It is a basic principle of logic that something cannot be both A and not A at the same time and in the same relationship. Time is the dimension God has created to logically define process, the changing of finite elements, the relationship between them. And since we are using time to define relationships, we must have an absolute point of reference, something that can only come from something outside of this universe. That leaves God, and His declaration of the beginning in Genesis 1. The problem with our understanding is that time must have a defining point to itself function as a definition. God does not have a defining point, He just flat out is. That fact is simply impossible to understand, because we think in terms of time, yet when we try to understand the One who must define time, He is Himself outside our time-limited understanding.
And to your question as to whether the universe could also be infinite, within the infinite God who made it… there’s a simple answer. It can’t be infinite because it has a beginning. It can’t be infinite because God marked out its boundaries. A universe bounded by God, even if still not bounded by space and time, which I believe it is, will still not be infinite because it is bounded by something outside of itself. God is bounded by nothing but His own character.
A final comment – you said that infinity can be made “remotely tangible” and can be “worked with” in mathematics. I’m an engineering major, I love math, but I still wince whenever I hear a math book or teacher speak of infinity so casually, as if they even remotely grasp what they are dealing with. To claim to understand infinity is like claiming to understand women (Or maybe it’s the other way around, I’m not sure…). Making the claim demonstrates how little of the subject one knows (And trust me, I know you’re not saying that you do, my frustration is for the professors and authors who seem to think they do). Infinity is an attribute possessed by God alone; it is part of the essence of God-ness if you will. It has not been communicated to us, it lies completely beyond that which defines us. The very fact that we can achieve some grasp of the mathematical concept of “infinity” should warn us that we aren’t dealing with true infinity, but rather our own approximation and feeble attempt to duplicate it. God defines math, not the other way around.
Please respond and feel free to differ with me and discuss the issue. I've been told I can come across as a little "full of myself" but that's certainly not the attitude I intend to bring. To me, it’s mind-twisting, and confuses me quite thoroughly, but very enjoyable to discuss and I hope you agree. :)
Jeff
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